Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper

Crossposted here from Daily Kos

I took the title from this piece - which dissected the "Obama is a Muslim" smear.

Today I find myself writing a diary that I should not have to write - defending a candidate that I should not have to defend against a claim that people here should be loath to repeat. This is hardly the first time a Democratic nominee has been misrepresented, lied about, smeared, slammed, etc. on a liberal blog. I'm sure it won't be the last.

Those of us who were here 4 years ago most likely remember SYFPH very well. SYFPH was born as a result of the MANY Democrats here on DKos (and elsewhere) who felt that Kerry would win no matter what, or that he'd lose and then we should all jump off bridges and move to New Zealand, or who felt that a vote for Nader was better than a vote for kerry - because Kerry was WRONG about the war in Iraq...the Republicans were right, he was a flip-flopper, etc.

In fact, let's take a bit of a stroll down memory lane:

Polls make clear the extent to which Bush's flip-flop charge has stuck. A poll released last week by Kohut's Pew Center showed that 53 percent of voters believe Kerry "changes his mind too much." This was down a few percentage points from a poll the week earlier, apparently showing that the effects of the Republican National Convention -- in which delegates swayed in unison chanting "flip-flop, flip-flop" about Kerry -- are wearing off. Even so, the latest data show that 62 percent said the attribute "takes a stand" applies more to Bush than to Kerry, while 29 percent said the opposite. Bush won by 57 percent to 34 percent on which candidate more deserves the phrase "strong leader."

Washington Post, September 23, 2004

If Kerry had won 4 years ago, we would be in a very different place today. I blame myself for this. I didn't work as hard as I could have. I didn't travel enough to those swing states. I didn't register enough new voters. I didn't make enough calls through MoveOn.org's website. I didn't knock on enough doors.

I'm not the only one to blame though. I blame those who were too pure to vote for Kerry - who voted Nader or stayed home instead. I blame those who bought Republican talking points. I blame Republicans in many areas for suppressing Dem voter turnout with misinformation campaigns. I blame those Democrats who thought we'd win without doing any work (oh, they existed). I blame our education system for not teaching people to read, write, or think critically - if they had those skills, they wouldn't be voting Republican - unless of course they're heartless assholes. But this is all beside the point.

Today, I am writing this diary to defend Barack Obama. A lot of you think he doesn't need defending. That's fine. I disagree. I'm a Democrat - and I see it as my job to defend, promote, volunteer for, and support (in any way I can) our candidates - whether I agree with them or like them.

So here we go --

A few weeks ago, a diary appeared on the rec list at DKos. The diary, The neuroscience of false beliefs, by mindgeek, was about an editorial he had published in the NYT, Your Brain Lies to You.

I think it's important to remind the netroots about this editorial and its message:

The brain does not simply gather and stockpile information as a computer's hard drive does. Facts are stored first in the hippocampus, a structure deep in the brain about the size and shape of a fat man's curled pinkie finger. But the information does not rest there. Every time we recall it, our brain writes it down again, and during this re-storage, it is also reprocessed. In time, the fact is gradually transferred to the cerebral cortex and is separated from the context in which it was originally learned. For example, you know that the capital of California is Sacramento, but you probably don't remember how you learned it.

snip

Even if they do not understand the neuroscience behind source amnesia, campaign strategists can exploit it to spread misinformation. They know that if their message is initially memorable, its impression will persist long after it is debunked. In repeating a falsehood, someone may back it up with an opening line like "I think I read somewhere" or even with a reference to a specific source.

So...in 2004 John Kerry was branded a flip-flopper. This was one of the things that cost him the election. It cost him thousands of votes - it lost him many Independents who felt that they couldn't vote for someone whose opinion was so changeable.

Well, Republicans aren't stupid - they saw what worked for them in 2004 and figured they'd try it again this year.

The "Obama is a flip-flopper" meme started in May - right after Obama became the nominee. The Weekly Standard picked it up on May 15th (not shocking). The AP picked up the message recently...and you know how the AP loves to help Republicans. Eternal Hope even covered this attempt here on DKos...regarding Obama's position on Iraq - which has not changed. In the past two months the right-wing media and pundits have done such a great job pushing the "flip-flopper" meme, that Democrats are actually repeating it now.

In the last 4 weeks there have been over 200 comments here on DKos - calling Obama a flip-flopper. Sure, some of those comments may be made in response to those who have made the claim, but look at the list of them - read a few - and you'll find that a lot of them are serious. This is just on DKos. Many other so-called liberal blogs are propagating this right wing frame.

Let's look at a few of the issues on which Obama has been accused of flip-flopping.

Obama on Iraq:

Bringing Our Troops Home

Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.

Obama has reiterated this point since he started running in the primary. You can read quotes from Sept. 2007 through June 2008 here.

This headline - Obama Struggles to Explain Iraq Stance is literally directly out of 2004 - replace the names and you have, Kerry Struggles to Explain Iraq Stance.

Here's a time-line of Obama's positions on Iraq:

As a candidate for the United States Senate in 2002, Obama put his political career on the line to oppose going to war in Iraq, and warned of "an occupation of undetermined length, with undetermined costs, and undetermined consequences." Obama has been a consistent, principled and vocal opponent of the war in Iraq.

   * In 2003 and 2004, he spoke out against the war on the campaign trail;
    * In 2005, he called for a phased withdrawal of our troops;
    * In 2006, he called for a timetable to remove our troops, a political solution within Iraq, and aggressive diplomacy with all of Iraq's neighbors;
    * In January 2007, he introduced legislation in the Senate to remove all of our combat troops from Iraq by March 2008.
    * In September 2007, he laid out a detailed plan for how he will end the war as president.

JedReport had a great diary, Barack-Iraq-Gate: Anatomy of a Media Smear [vid], about Obama's position on Iraq - and the media's attempt to call this a flip-flop.

Obama's position on Iraq has been the same since the war in Iraq started. No flip-flop exists.

Obama on FISA:

Obama comes out against a proposed FISA bill granting retroactive immunity, October 18, 2007:

   Obama: "It is time to restore oversight and accountability in the FISA program, and this proposal -- with an unprecedented grant of retroactive immunity -- is not the place to start."

And then this June - Obama issues a different statement on the currently proposed "compromise" bill. I'll note here that I disagree with this bill. I don't think it should pass. I don't think Obama should vote for it. This issue will not make or break my support for Obama.

Here is a large chunk of the June statement:

"After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act.

"Under this compromise legislation, an important tool in the fight against terrorism will continue, but the President's illegal program of warrantless surveillance will be over. It restores FISA and existing criminal wiretap statutes as the exclusive means to conduct surveillance - making it clear that the President cannot circumvent the law and disregard the civil liberties of the American people. It also firmly re-establishes basic judicial oversight over all domestic surveillance in the future. It does, however, grant retroactive immunity, and I will work in the Senate to remove this provision so that we can seek full accountability for past offenses. But this compromise guarantees a thorough review by the Inspectors General of our national security agencies to determine what took place in the past, and ensures that there will be accountability going forward. By demanding oversight and accountability, a grassroots movement of Americans has helped yield a bill that is far better than the Protect America Act.

"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary to protect the lives - and the liberty - of the American people."

And then, of course, there is Obama's statement on FISA from this past Thursday.

I'm sure most of you have read the whole statement - you can read it at that link above. I'd like to excerpt two important sections:

The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I'm persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe -- particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer.  Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I've chosen to support the current compromise. I do so with the firm intention -- once I'm sworn in as President -- to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.

snip

Democracy cannot exist without strong differences. And going forward, some of you may decide that my FISA position is a deal breaker. That's ok.  But I think it is worth pointing out that our agreement on the vast majority of issues that matter outweighs the differences we may have. After all, the choice in this election could not be clearer. Whether it is the economy, foreign policy, or the Supreme Court, my opponent has embraced the failed course of the last eight years, while I want to take this country in a new direction. Make no mistake: if John McCain is elected, the fundamental direction of this country that we love will not change. But if we come together, we have an historic opportunity to chart a new course, a better course.  

Many of you view these more recent two statements as a flip-flop of Obama's position on FISA. I don't call it that. From the first time he commented on FISA, Obama stated that he opposed retroactive immunity for telecoms. He is still saying that today. From the first time he commented on FISA, Obama stated that we needed to restore oversight and accountability to FISA.

Obama makes it pretty clear that security is important to him. He believes that the FISA court should be allowed to continue. He has stated that he will work to remove the immunity provision, and he's said that oversight and accountability are very important to him.

This isn't a flip-flop. Obama's position on FISA is the same now as it was then. Obama is simply stating a willingness to compromise on a bill in order to preserve some of what he wanted now, and when he wins and takes office in January he will be in the position to fix the problems with FISA. This is nuance. This is gradually moving closer to goals.

In May 2007 The New Yorker featured an article about Obama, The Conciliator. This is one of those articles that I read where I knew I'd made the right choice in a candidate - one where I knew that I had picked the candidate that America needed - right now. The following paragraph applies to the FISA decision Obama has made:

Obama has staked his candidacy on union--on bringing together two halves of America that are profoundly divided, and by associating himself with Lincoln--and he knows what both of those things mean. He calls America's founding a "grand compromise": compromise, for him, is not an eroding of principle for the sake of getting something done but a principle in itself--the certainty of uncertainty, the fundament of union. "I would save the Union," Lincoln wrote, in a letter to Horace Greeley, the editor of the New York Tribune. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." "I like to believe that for Lincoln it was never a matter of abandoning conviction for the sake of expediency," Obama writes. "Rather . . . that we must talk and reach for common understandings, precisely because all of us are imperfect and can never act with the certainty that God is on our side."

Obama on choice:

Obama's website has an incredibly long section regarding his position on issues that relate to women. One of those issues is Reproductive choice. Obama has two statements there related to choice (there's more in his voting record as well as his Blueprint for Change booklet - you can download the pdf on the Issues page of his website).

Here's what Obama has to say:

Supports a Woman's Right to Choose:
Barack Obama understands that abortion is a divisive issue, and respects those who disagree with him. However, he has been a consistent champion of reproductive choice and will make preserving women's rights under Roe v. Wade a priority as President. He opposes any constitutional amendment to overturn the Supreme Court's decision in that case.

Preventing Unwanted Pregnancy:
Barack Obama is an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand access to contraception, health information and preventive services to help reduce unintended pregnancies. Introduced in January 2007, the Prevention First Act will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods. The Act will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims.

Throughout his political career he has consistently voted to protect a woman's right to choose. He has also consistently voted to promote comprehensive sex education. Obama received a 100% rating from every pro-choice group in the United States for every year he has been in office.

Obama gave a speech to Planned Parenthood on 7/17/07 and said one of the first things he'd do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act - Click here to watch the speech.

Obama restated this same promise to support the Freedom of Choice Act in his Roe anniversary speech on January 22, 2008.

Last week Obama did an interview with Relevant magazine. This is a Christian magazine. In this interview he tried to clarify his position on late-term abortions. I do believe he made his position a bit muddier by using language that wasn't concise, but he has since re-clarified his position and I feel comfortable with it. There are several reasons why I feel comfortable with it - and I'll explain them below, but first I'd like to quote from the article because I believe that it is important to show you exactly what he said about late-term abortion.

In response to a question that asked him to clarify his position on late term abortions, Obama said:

I have repeatedly said that I think it's entirely appropriate for states to restrict or even prohibit late-term abortions as long as there is a strict, well-defined exception for the health of the mother. Now, I don't think that "mental distress" qualifies as the health of the mother. I think it has to be a serious physical issue that arises in pregnancy, where there are real, significant problems to the mother carrying that child to term. Otherwise, as long as there is such a medical exception in place, I think we can prohibit late-term abortions.

This statement was reclarified here:

Reporter: You said that mental distress shouldn't be a reason for late-term abortion?

Obama: "My only point is this -- historically I have been a strong believer in a women's right to choose with her doctor, her pastor and her family. And it is ..I have consistently been saying that you have to have a health exception on many significant restrictions or bans on abortions including late-term abortions.

In the past there has been some fear on the part of people who, not only people who are anti-abortion, but people who may be in the middle, that that means that if a woman just doesn't feel good then that is an exception. That's never been the case.

I don't think that is how it has been interpreted. My only point is that in an area like partial-birth abortion having a mental, having a health exception can be defined rigorously. It can be defined through physical health, It can be defined by serious clinical mental-health diseases. It is not just a matter of feeling blue. I don't think that's how pro-choice folks have interpreted it. I don't think that's how the courts have interpreted it and I think that's important to emphasize and understand."

In other words...Obama is making clear to the Christian right that he doesn't think it's okay for a woman to say, "Gee, I'm feeling a bit down today in my 8th month...and I think I'll go get an abortion." Mental distress and mental health illnesses are not the same things.

It may seem insane or silly to you that he would need to say that. We all know here that this is not how late-term abortion works. BUT - I have dealt with anti-choice folks for a LONG time now and one of the things that many of them believe is that Democrats want that. I don't blame Obama for wanting to distance himself from that.

Now...having said that - I personally believe that any woman should be able to have an abortion any time she wants it for whatever reason she wants it. That's my personal belief. I may not agree with her choice, but it isn't my business one way or another. It's HER choice. Period. Do I believe that my personal level of "choice" should be the law of the land? Well sure...but it isn't. The Supreme Court has set out restrictions in several ways - even noting that late-term abortions can be banned by states as long as there is an exception for the life of the mother. So why am I comfortable with Obama's position on reproductive choice if I don't entirely agree with it?

A few reasons...

1. Obama or McCain. One is pro-choice and respects women. One is anti-choice and called his wife a cunt and a trollop.

2. Obama supports the Freedom of Choice Act.

3. Obama supports comprehensive sex education.

4. The Republicans will NEVER ever ever ever ever ever ever propose a bill that would ban late-term abortion that provides the necessary exceptions for the health of the mother in any state. They simply will not do this. Doing that would kill the issue for them. That isn't in their best interests and never has been.

During the primary, Obama's position on choice became a point of debate. The Clinton camp claimed that Obama wasn't as pro-choice as he claimed he was. The result was this endorsement switch. Lorna Brett Howard moved from Hillary's camp over to Obama's camp.

The interview with Relevant magazine doesn't present Obama changing his position on choice - his position has been the same since day one. He has always been solidly pro-choice and his votes have always reflected that.

Obama on Welfare Reform:

On July 1st, ABC claimed that Obama changed his position on Welfare reform (among other things) --

Obama's transformation from critic to champion of welfare reform is the latest in a series of moves to the center. Since capturing the Democratic nomination, the Obama campaign has altered its stances on Social Security taxes, meeting with rogue leaders without preconditions, and the constitutionality of Washington, D.C.'s, sweeping gun ban.

snip

The shift in Obama's rhetoric on welfare reform has proceeded in stages. When former President Bill Clinton was poised to sign welfare reform while running for re-election in 1996, Obama called it "disturbing." A decade later, as an underdog running for president against Clinton's wife, he spent 2007 avoiding the subject. By the time Obama emerged as the Democratic frontrunner in the spring of 2008, he began leaving the impression that he was for it all along.

Here's the ad in which they claim he's changed his position:

Those of you who read Fact Check regularly have already read this detailed history of Obama's positions on welfare.

Here's just part of one quote found on the Fact Check page:

Obama: Conservatives and Bill Clinton Were Right That Welfare As it Was Structured Was Wrong to Detach Income from Work. "We should also acknowledge that conservatives--and Bill Clinton--were right about welfare as it was previously structured: By detaching income from work, and by making no demands on welfare recipients other than a tolerance for intrusive bureaucracy and an assurance that no man lived in the same house as the mother of his children, the old AFDC program sapped people of their initiative and eroded their self-respect. Any strategy to reduce intergenerational poverty has to be centered on work, not welfare--not only because work provides independence and income but also because work provides order, structure, dignity, and opportunities for growth in people's lives. But we also need to admit that work alone does not ensure that people can rise out of poverty."

That excerpt can be found in The Audacity of Hope on page 256. I urge you to go read more to see just how ABC has attempted to manipulate this story - a story that I've seen repeated here on Daily Kos.

I consider primary time to be of utmost importance in the election process - it's not just that the majority of primary voters choose our nominee - it's that time we have where we make our own personal choices about who we're going to support. When I sit down to make that choice during a primary...I take the process pretty seriously. I look at every candidate. I read about all their positions. I look at their voting records. I listen to or read as many speeches as I have time for. I consider it a very serious responsibility to educate myself - and then I make a choice based on all that information.

All the way back in 2004 - the moment Obama finished his speech at the Convention, I knew that if he ran for President some day, I would support him. When he announced his choice to run in 2007 - I wasn't sure THIS would be that time. I wanted Gore to run. I was excited about Hillary. I liked a lot of what John Edwards was saying. I thought Richardson had some interesting ideas. Dodd could be pretty fiery when he wanted to...and of course, no matter what "match up" quiz I'd take - I would always be "most matched" with Kucinich.

After a few months I chose to support Barack Obama. I chose to have faith in a Presidential candidate. I looked at Obama and I saw hope. I saw a different way of doing things. I didn't see a candidate promising instant gratification when he knew that wasn't possible - even if that meant he might lose. I saw a man who was willing to be honest. I decided to trust Barack Obama.

Now, you may not have supported Obama in the primary. You may not have trusted him then...you may not trust him now. That's fine. I'm not asking you to trust him. I'm asking you to realize that when you repeat Republican talking points - the smear that Obama is a "flip-flopper" - you are not helping to elect him. Instead, you are helping Republicans.

Americans have two choices before them - Obama or McCain. There is a flip-flopper in this race. His name is John McCain. I'm not sure why, but the liberal blogosphere hasn't spent too much time talking about John McCain and his flip-flops. The media hasn't either. And McCain certainly isn't going to call himself a flip-flopper. That's our job.

Instead of doing our job - instead of framing the Republican nominee as the lying piece of shit that he is - many people here are helping the Republicans frame our own nominee as a flip-flopper who will say anything to get elected.

Some days I wonder why I bother to log in here anymore. Some days I wonder why I'm bothering to attend Netroots Nation. Some days I wonder if there are enough of us activists out there - registering voters, planning events, making connections with new volunteers, etc. Will we be able to do enough to combat the Republicans this November and elect Barack Obama? I sure hope so. The alternative is horrific.

But I know one thing - we shouldn't have to combat Democrats to elect a Democrat. Circular firing squads have been contributing to Dem losses for a long time now. We can let that continue, or we can look around and realize that it's General Election time - and we have two choices - and one of those agrees with most of us on most issues. The other doesn't agree with any of us on any issues.

I am done defending Democrats here. This is the last time I will do it. I shouldn't HAVE to do it. My focus from this point on is on John McCain.

Note: I am not asking you to abstain from criticizing Obama. I'm not asking you to keep your disagreements to yourself. Obama himself welcomed them. There are several issues where I find disagreement with Obama - gay marriage, FISA, clean coal, and a few others. I absolutely disagree with him on these things. I want him to change his positions. I want him to move further to the left on those issues. I've made that position known to him on several occasions. So no, I don't have a problem with disagreements. I don't have a problem with criticism. I have a problem with Republican talking points being repeated by Democrats - and you ought to as well.

And yeah...I'm sure some of you will simply say that I'm just being paranoid...or that I'm reenacting some chicken little story. That's fine. We don't have to agree, but I would like to remind you that in 2004 we thought Kerry had the election won. We thought there was no way he could lose...and then he lost. I'm seeing the same mistakes we made then reenacted here now. I'd like to be wrong, but we won't know whether I am until November.



Display:


Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 16)

Please remember that when you talk about our nominee - people listen...and while you may be a Democrat no matter what, there are people out there who find Obama appealing who may not be Dems until the end.


by Elise on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:53:53 PM EST

Excellent diary, Elise. I simply cannot (2.00 / 1)

understand what motivates someone, calling themselves a Democrat, to abandon "good" in the search for "perfect." In my mind I imagine a small, withered, oratorically challenged McCain straining mightily against immense rubber bands, reaching towards the center. In the event of a McCain win, those rubber bands - embossed with "compassionate conservatism" - would snap him back to the right so fast that whip-lash would be the least of our worries.  Then I imagine a young, vibrant, oratorically gifted Obama easily reaching for the center because "yes we can" isn't just for lefties anymore. And I don't feel abandoned, betrayed, or any such crap because Obama as President of all the people is infinitely better than McBush as President of the wealthy and well-connected. I envision an Obama Presidency as a coalition of the far-left, the left, the center, and the center-right. That only leaves out the assholes, the primitives, and uber-greedy. And after what they've done to our country over the past 7 1/2 years, 'eff them, and the horse they rode in on. I trust Obama, but I will work to hold his feet to the fire on issues important to me. That is the way it should be. Now, let's get back to beating the crap out of McCain, the real flip-flopper in this race.


Obama supporter working to defeat McCain.
by Rumarhazzit on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:13:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent diary, Elise. I simply cannot (none / 0)

Exactly Who are these people? Using Clinton to support McCain. It doesn't make sense unless you are a Republican.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:22:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Excellent diary, Elise. I simply cannot (2.00 / 1)

Much like the "tipping point" diary that was up and rec'd a bit ago... its really all just bs.  

The only way these guys stand a hope in hell is by splitting the opposition.  They have done it before and will try it again.  There is no doubt.

All of these issues here really make no difference at this point anyways because they are not decisions that are up to Obama.  Sure he could make some sort of principled stand on some thing or another, but seriously, anything that he votes on that manages to pass congress will either be vetoed or modified with a signing statement.

The important at this point is that to win this race, Obama needs votes.  He will be fighting against the people that hold power and they currently have a lot of it.

I do understand peoples unhappiness when they feel he is not as liberal as we would want... but seriously, give me a break.  This is an election between either more of the same or a chance and a hope for something new.

It is not time to split hairs on principles, that will come.  It is time to understand and recognize that to win, our candidate has to get more then 1/2 the votes.  To do that, he has to appeal to people... as many as possible.

The details can be worked out later, the election has to be won first.  If that doesnt happen, then none of these positions will matter.  Period.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Amazing diary. (2.00 / 1)

This is the type of stuff that should be frontpage linked somewhere.  Cause we are going to be fighting this from here on in.  

I saved it to my computer for further reference, because these bs arguments will be played again and again.

Thanks for all the work and all the links.  I understand that everyone is not happy with everything, but seriously, considering the option is more of McSame...


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:52:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 1)

he has a real problem with FISA in that "I will work to remove" id not what should be expected. he needs to twist arms and knock heads and get the gods dammed immunity out. Being equivocal on that and trying to nuance the repuke base just does not work, it only makes him look indecisive and leaves him open to charges of looking weak. If we want the WH back and 60 then more is needed. and if you think that is a "smear" you need to look the word up.


by zerosumgame on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:28:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 10)

A must-read. Thanks for posting.

Unfortunately, it seems certain people here really have no interest in defending the Democratic nominee against smears, but in fact want to further those smears.

Cole Sear: I see dead-enders.
Malcolm Crowe: In your dreams?
[Cole shakes his head no]
Malcolm Crowe: While you're awake?
[Cole nods]
Malcolm Crowe: Dead-enders like, on this blog? In the diaries?
Cole Sear: Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're dead-enders.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 11:54:20 PM EST

I see deadenders.... (2.00 / 3)

That is hysterical.

Comment of the week!

Can't stop laughing at this one.


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:05:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 2)

I agree with Johnny. Great diary. Rec


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:35:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 1)

Not just dead-enders.  People actively working against the future of this country.  Regardless of what the reasons they have in their own minds, or whether it is fear or faith or money, at this point there is no other way to see these people.

I do not blame the voters that don't know any better, or have been lied to and sold on some issue or another while ignoring all others, but there is no excuse for those that come here as trolls, concern or otherwise, trying to create doubt and discord here and at other democratic bogs.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:59:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 4)

Rec'd


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:00:10 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 10)

excellent diary.  It goes further than this though--we Dems have a tendency to accept Republican frames for all issues, and we need to stop it.


by slynch on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:00:38 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 6)

Exactly.

This is one of those areas that no matter how much we call ourselves on it, we seem to slip right back into it over and over again.

It goes hand in hand with slamming the traditional media as liars and hacks, only to completely buy a story that's 100% BS 1 hour later.


by Elise on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:04:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

There is no doubt the party has it's strengths and weaknesses, and our strength in diversity is also our weekness in supporting one candidate.

It's not going to stop completely, it just has to be understood that there is only one candidate.  I know all of these issues matter, but now is not the time to argue over them.

If there is one thing the republicans can do, is motivate people to vote on one issue alone and completely against their interests in all other areas.  At least we have a candidate that represents most of our issues.  The details don't matter at this point.  We have to win the election first.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:04:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Troll bait! (2.00 / 4)

They'll be all over this one before everything is said and done.

Get your donuts ready boys and girls!

Thank you for a great diary.

Highly rec'd.


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:03:10 AM EST

Re: Troll bait! (2.00 / 3)

Nah.  Turns out facts scare them off, kinda like garlic and vampires.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:06:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Troll bait! (none / 0)

Ya, so true eh?  Sure makes you wonder who these people are and what are their motives, cause it really makes no sense to me.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:06:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Troll bait! (2.00 / 1)

Spaceman You are absolutely on. They don't like diaries like this.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:47:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 8)

Here's hoping to load the top of this with the positive responses this diary deserves before the regular "concerned Democrats" find it.  Highly rec.

One sure sign of a troller -- they can write with peculiar passion about their distain for Obama but with only dispassionate blurbs about the issues that supposedly have alienated them.  Engage them on the issue itself and they fall apart like a house of cards.

I find it fascinating how the conservative radioheads have taken up the flip flopper "cause" of all these poor disenfranchised "real liberal Democrats".  Seems a rather odd coalition, no?  Suddenly Sean Hannity cares that my liberal values are being abandoned by this empty suit?  Hmm.  you'd think he'd be a little reassured to see Obama heading for the middle.  


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:50:53 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 5)

Excellent diary. that quote about Lincoln just opened my eye a notch more into Obama's thinking which clarifies some of his positions today and give me increased confidence in his abilities.

Thanks!!


by Fistjab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:07:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

^ was a reply to the diary


by Fistjab on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 01:08:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 3)

There was a rash of Obama-attack diaries in recent days and I've been typing my fingers to the bone debunking them and calling out the PUMA/McTrolls.

Now today it's gone pretty quiet.

It will be interesting to see if they start anew a week from now when the possibly banned culprits can get posting privileges again.


by Beren on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:21:06 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 1)

They will be back. I guarantee it. But they are on the wrong side of history. It will be a long 8 years for them.


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:39:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

The one thing to remember is their only hope in hell is by splitting our side with diversive tactics because Democrats so outnumber Republicans currently.

All this media attention about nothing and suggesting that the base will abondon our candidate and the flip-flopping meme... etc... is complete bullshit.

It has to be understood for what it is.  This is an election.  The winner needs more then 1/2 of the votes.  Obama would (and should) do whatever it takes to make that happen.

And we should do whatever it takes to support him along the way.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Three cheers for SYFPH! (2.00 / 5)

Excellent diary.  Tipped and recced.


by spunkmeyer on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:21:10 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 6)

This is a wonderful diary and am glad it's rec'd.  We're democrats here. And progressives.  We want Barack Obama and blue majority candidates to win.  No?  So let's get to work.


by calwoman on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 02:21:17 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 2)

I think it's fair to debate the issues and question the candidate.  What I object to are the labels -- folks calling "flip flopper" like that actually MEANS anything substantial.

What the hell IS a flip flopper?  Sounds to me like someone with two distinctly different views on an issue that they use interchangably depending on the audience.  It doesn't well describe someone who evolves their opinion on an issue, or after further consideration changes their mind, both signs of mental flexibility and sophisticated thought.

"Flip flopper" is a dog whistle for "cannot be trusted" when I have found the most capable leaders are those who can be trusted to accept and integrate challenges to their own positions.  

What I don't want for another eight years is a black and white thinker unresponsive to changing realities, shifts in public opinion and the results of experimentation.  I don't want another president who blindly contends to always be right and declares himself emperor in his own head.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:20:06 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

I totally agree it is fair to discuss any issue, views and concerns anytime.  But the forest has to be seen through the trees.  It's not about any one issue, it is about winning the election.  Then these issues come into play.

What is happening here, by labeling etc, is to make people doubt and question.  Like that diary earlier about "tipping point".  None of these issues will make a bit of difference if we don't win.

So we must maintain focus on that.  Let Obama do what he has to, and we do what we have to.  


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:14:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

Obama cheerleader Bob Herbert:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/08/opinio n/08herbert.html?ref=opinion


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:32:11 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

Do they send you out a bunch of useful links by email each day, or do you have to go search for this shit yourself.

Just because some moron has some opinion in the nyt, does not make it right or valid.  This is not a race for how liberal or principled you are, this is a race for the president of the United States.  

Obama will do what he has to to get more then 1/2 of the votes.  We will do what we have to to help make sure that happens.  You can do whatever you want.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:19:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

Obama is not a flip-flopper.

He merely says and does whatever needs to be said and done at any given time, and that changes depending on how it affects his political fortunes.


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:33:13 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 3)

Here they come!


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:42:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

Here what come?

I've heard staunch supporters of Obama acknowledge this, even praise him for it.

Is it different then??

Reminds me of how I'm not allowed to mention hope, change, and inspiration here too.  Strange, since it's what Obama ran on.

Now we can't bring up anything Obama ran on during the primary.  How odd!


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:48:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

You can't say anything about Obama without being called ___!


by MeganLocke on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:58:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not whether you rehash your primary grudges (none / 0)

But why. WHY?


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:35:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Speaking of the PUMAteers . . . (2.00 / 3)

here comes another one to tell us what a big, unprincipled liar Obama is and how stupid the people who supported him in the primary are.

Back under your bridge.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:19:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Speaking of the PUMAteers . . . (none / 0)

Gee, being called a troll by the Inspired Uniters because I dare tell the truth about Obama.

I've yet to get an answer to this:

I merely noted that Obama is pandering.  I said throughout the primaries that Obama is no different than any pol and was called all kinds of horrible things by those who want change and to end divisive politics and who are full of hope.

Now that Obama is more clearly (for those who couldn't see it early on) positioning and pandering, I've seen a lot of his supporters, including many diarists, not only admitting it but praising him for it, saying he's just doing what needs to be done to win (this was a terrible thing when Hillary was doing it) and doing what all politicians do.

But when I say it, I'm a troll???

How does that work?


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:25:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The primaries are over. (1.50 / 4)

Your candidate didn't win.

Get over it already.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:26:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The primaries are over. (none / 0)

Um, where do I even mention Clinton, or any other Dem candidate?

I stuck with the issue: Obama's sudden change in character.

Can you?


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:28:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, you are regurgitating the RNC (2.00 / 1)

talking points like a good little McCain-loving PUMA kitten.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:33:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, you are regurgitating the RNC (none / 0)

I'll take that as a no, you can't discuss the topic.

Only personal insults. Just like Repubs.

Oh well.  You bought the "change" crap, not me.


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:37:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, you are regurgitating the RNC (none / 0)

Whatever man.  Don't know if you noticed, but most people here are adults that can express their views in actual conversation.  It is your threads that end in name calling and personal bs.

Don't know what motivates you, but if you have any interest in any future at all that is beyond more of McSame, then try to find some sort of useful and positive position on something.

If not then of course people will continue to call you on your bullshit.  

That's their choice, just like you have yours.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:24:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, you are regurgitating the RNC (none / 0)

Btw, I cannot stand McCain.

See how you rely on ad hominem and hyperbole just to attack and avoid the substance of a topic?

Again, just like Republicans do. They also don't tolerate any dissent among their own.  They even require loyalty oaths.

Perhaps you think we should go that route too?


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:45:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Perhaps you should pretend (none / 0)

that you're more interested in seeing a Democrat elected than in complaining.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:50:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

You don't post any substance (2.00 / 1)

you just make sweeping assertions.  I've never seen you discuss the details of any issue.  If you made your comments more substantive you'd probably get more substantive replies.


by JJE on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's only in your fantasy-driven reality (none / 0)

that your accusations have credibility. Your loud proclamations that he is, gasp, a politician, isn't news to the rest of us.

There's your answer. Find a new whine.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:39:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Truly a diary from some other planet (2.00 / 2)

Look, when even as reliable an Obama supporter as Bob Herbert turns on Obama as being a flip flopper, don't you think it's time to acknowledge there's a problem, rather than go further into denial?

From Herbert's column:

One issue or another might not have made much difference. Tacking toward the center in a general election is as common as kissing babies in a campaign, and lord knows the Democrats need to expand their coalition.

But Senator Obama is not just tacking gently toward the center. He's lurching right when it suits him, and he's zigging with the kind of reckless abandon that's guaranteed to cause disillusion, if not whiplash.


by frankly0 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:42:37 AM EST

Re: Truly a diary from some other planet (2.00 / 1)

One man's opinion


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:44:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Truly a diary from some other planet (2.00 / 1)

Look, don't you think that a guy as deep into the Obama tank as Herbert has been would do everything he could to justify to himself and others Obama's "refinements" on various issues, if he thought he could do so without turning himself into a joke?

He looked at what Obama has done in recent weeks, couldn't deny the in-the-middle-of-the-street-at-high-noon pattern, and wrote the protesting column I've linked to.

Ask yourself, what does it say about me that I can't even be as honest with myself and others as a erstwhile shameless cheerleader as Bob Herbert?


by frankly0 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:53:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

ZOMG! A Beltway pundit gets (2.00 / 1)

it wrong.

Unheard of!


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:16:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Truly a diary from some other planet (none / 0)

Hey, thats the second link to that in the last 10 comments.  Do they send you guys talking points of the day with links that support them?  Or do you just magically come up with this shit yourselves.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:26:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Froze 'em in their tracks. n/t (none / 0)


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:41:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Most annoying is the lack (2.00 / 1)

of unity for Obama.

When folks like BigTentDemocrat and supposed intellectual giant on the left buys into all this crap and keeps repeating it, you have to wonder, whose side is he on.

Obama is our nominee. Can we wait till he is elected before we trash him with false memes set out by Republicans and some democrats.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:50:48 AM EST

Look, (2.00 / 2)

let's just say you don't have to an "intellectual giant" to see that Obama is shamelessly flip flopping in recent weeks.

You really have to strip yourself of all dignity and integrity and common sense and reading ability in order to pretend Obama hasn't been flip flopping.

It's not a flattering fact about some Obama supporters that they deny the existence of something that's right in front of their noses.


by frankly0 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:01:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look, (none / 0)

It's the exact same mindset that allowed Bush to rule as he did. Everything he did and said was rationalized and defended, no matter how obviously egregious, wrong, inept, or illegal.

His critics were also attacked, called traitors, accused of "playing for the enemy".

The fact that this same theme is now going on among Democrats is very disturbing.


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:50:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look, (none / 0)

You can't say ANYTHING about Obama with being called a ___!


by MeganLocke on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:00:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Your opinion (none / 0)

not mine.

I suppose you would rather have John McCain the non-flip flopping Republican as President then.

Keep it up and we will.

Obama has enough hurdles with racism alive and well in America, and his own base attacking him.

Good Lord just stop it. Obama is NOT like GWB nor will he ever be.

For starters he got way better grades in school than George. He doesn't have a rich daddy to rescue him and he is a progressive Democrat.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Look, (none / 0)

A flip-flop is a fucking shoe.  Get over it already.

Obama is opening up issues and moderating positions to interest more voters.  And to be ahead of the rw and 527 ads that are coming to supposedly define him.

Hard to claim he is the most liberal candidate ever when he spends 2 weeks addressing issues of the center.

It's also not a flattering fact about some Obama non-supporters that they point out the existance of something that only exists in rw talking points.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:31:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most annoying is the lack (none / 0)

The false meme was put out by Obama and his supporters during the campaign, namely that he represents a new politic, doesn't pander, doesn't do "whatever he needs to to win" and isn't a cynical opportunist.

Those of us who knew he was could have lived with it had he been more honest about it (and his supporters). What is galling is that he won on this fraudulent basis about who is IS.

I admit to having a hard time accepting it.


by Juno on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:09:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He won because he is smarter (none / 0)

than his opposition.

You don't think people powered, as in many small donations is a change in politics.

Grow up! Get a clue! And either don't vote or get behind our nominee.

(Yeah Hillary was great, but she fricking lied about sniper fire, and NAFTA, so no dem candidate was perfect)

Yeah there is sexism.

And there is racism too. Something that you whiners won't acknowledge.

Unless we support our nominee  say hello to old man McCain as President.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:46:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He won because he is smarter (none / 0)

This guy is obviously here to help McSame win.  Whether intentional or otherwise.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:33:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Those clever Republicans (none / 0)

What do they have a small army of bloggers pretending to be democrats stirring up trouble all over the internets? :)


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

the people on the left who call (1.66 / 3)

him a 'flip-flopper' don't give a crap about getting a Democrat elected in November.  

If they did, they'd actually volunteer, or donate, or do something that required getting off their self-righteous rear-ends.

Instead, they do what they always do--sit behind a keyboard, whine, call names, and pout.

Note that folks like BTD tend to repeat McCain's talking points faithfully with only a flimsy concern troll disguise.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:15:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Really, (2.00 / 1)

what you want people to do is throw out any semblance of integrity, deny what they and everyone else can see right in front of their noses, and shill for the Democrat who happens to have been made nominee, even while every day he becomes still less of a lesser evil -- and is so enabled by the likes of you.

But some of us have to live with ourselves past November, you know?


by frankly0 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:01:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Do you still have your "Nader 2000" (none / 0)

bumpersticker?


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 12:23:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Really, (none / 0)

So what are you saying.  That we should continue to argue about every flipping issue that comes up?  

How do you think republicans win?  By supporting the candidate that (supposedly) represents their interests.  Does McSame represent your interest?  If so, vote for him.  If not, SYFP.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:35:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

No, just give up the faux outrage (none / 0)

Go make your "Don't Blame Me" bumpersticker, charlatan.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 09:49:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This site must be infected (none / 0)

with Puma nuts and NoQuarter hacks, otherwise known as very stupid gullible people.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:47:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

McCain-loving PUMAteers used (none / 0)

to rule the roost around here.

Diaries calling Michelle Obama a 'welfare queen' made the rec list.  Tony Rezko was the most diaried subject.  Until Jeremiah Wright came along.

Most of those who won't vote for the party's nominee have had the decency to go away.  But, some deadenders remain.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:35:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This site must be infected (none / 0)

What I wonder is what motivates these people.  Seriously.  They don't have ignorance or stupidity as excuses.  Nor fear or faith.  I sure hope its a bunch of money, because I don't know what is left.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's the Republican strategy (none / 0)

because YES they are that desperate!


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:05:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Armando (2.00 / 1)

is just picking fights and playing to the TalkLeft nutters.  That guy has never been very sharp.


by JJE on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:11:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But he has a platform and a following (2.00 / 1)

and like Bill O'Reily using this constant meme of sexism and whatever else to show us that he so very smart and clever.

What a loser. I swear I half wonder if he is working for Republicans or Hillary still. Next thing you know he will be applying for a job as a Fox News gas bag, right beside Wolfson, Ferraro, and Lanny Davis.

Armando is way more of a narcissist than he is an intellectual.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 04:50:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agreed (2.00 / 1)

he just wants hits.  That's why he is always trying to pick fights with bigger fish than he.


by JJE on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:14:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Can you believe him.... (none / 0)

he was a semi-respected voice.

Now he is doing the democratic nominee damage by advertising for hits trying to rile up disaffected Hillary voters.

He should at least be more responsible IF he is truly a democrat!


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:16:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Can you believe him.... (2.00 / 1)

He's obviously just a f'ing idiot.  Just means we have to work harder.  Would be nice to have him (and PUMA and everyone) online, but people seem to be so wrapped up in these make or break issues that will not make a bit of difference if we loose.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's very smart. (none / 0)

But, he's deeply dishonest about his motives to the point where he may have fooled himself into believing his own nonsense.


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:46:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's smart (none / 0)

but not very smart.

Just smart enough to make himself look stupid.

I can't believe I USED to respect his opinion. No MORE!


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 06:36:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He's not interested in seeing (none / 0)

a Democrat elected in November.

He's interested in having the merry band of Obama-haters* at Talkleft tell him how smart and honest and noble he is.  

*There are four types of commenters at TalkLeft:

1)  "I hate Obama and will vote for McCain"

  1.  "I hate Obama and will not vote"
  2.  "I hate Obama but I'll vote for him anyways"
  3.  Despicable, dishonest Obama cultists and apologists


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:45:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah I wonder sometimes.... (none / 0)

He was one of the first so called liberal bloggers to jump on board this cultist meme.

Jebus, how can a politician can be elected without being popular, you know, with fans and people that support you. Or in Armando speak, cultists.

And why in the hell was he pushing such a ridiculous meme and where did he get this idea?


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 07:01:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He has a deep emotional (none / 0)

hostility towards Obama and anyone who supports Obama without acting ashamed of it.


by Geekesque on Wed Jul 09, 2008 at 09:18:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

He's one of the biggest frauds on the entire (none / 0)

Internet.

Claims he's an Obama supporter during the primary, and devotes 95% of his posts to trashing Obama and anyone who supports Obama or anyone he thinks is biased in favor of Obama.

Gets all huffy and puffy about media attacks on Clinton and goes on a personal crusade about sexism, but then links to No Quarter without once criticizing Lunatic Larry Johnson and the band of racists over there.

Claims he's now a 'full-throated' Obama supporter and, you guessed it, devotes 95% of his posts to trashing Obama, anyone who supports Obama, or anyone he thinks is or has been biased in favor of Obama.

And he repeatedly uses the RNC's daily talking points about Obama--calls him a liar and a flip-flopper literally dozens of times.  

Says he's a  hardcore partisan Democrat who will support Obama, but already has twice found issues that will be 'deal-breakers' for him.  Also complains that anything less than 95% vicious, negative attacks from him would be 'fawning' and 'adulation.'  

Armando can be assumed to have one goal:  Screwing Obama.  


by Geekesque on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:41:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Most annoying is the lack (none / 0)

I can tell you exactly whose side BTD is on...his own.


by Elise on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 11:06:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

Made a similar diary a couple of days ago:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/7/5/1318/ 83506
by EnzoValenzetti on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 08:52:20 AM EST

Nice. (none / 0)

And simple with good quotes.  Bookmarking.


by herenow on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 05:40:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 2)

I'm not a blind Democratic Party supporter that votes the Party line.  My first loyalty is to the Constitution.  Any politician that refuses to protect the Constitution is not one I'm interested in making President.  FISA is not a small issue and I'm not surrendering my rights even if both you and Obama think I should do so.  We sure have become a bunch of weak, geeky, spineless individuals haven't we!


by orionwest on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:00:28 AM EST

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 1)

It's going to be a long 8 years for some people. The rest of us will be at peace. McCain and Bush equal WAR


by Politicalslave on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:09:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (2.00 / 1)

Without a Constitution we are dead anyway so what does it matter who is President!


by orionwest on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:15:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Anatomy of a Smear 2.0: Flip Flopper (none / 0)

Listen man, seriously, the only thing at this point that matters is votes.  Obama is doing what it takes to get 1/2 of them and we are doing what it takes to help.

Splitting hairs over particular issues... that he has little or no control over at this point does not matter.  The alternative is more of the McSame.  This is an either one, or the other situation.

Honestly, I wish that there were more choices, but this is what we have to work with.  

The real question you have to ask yourself is what side are you on.  And what are you